Justice Vs.

Justice Vs. Exclusion: Fighting for LGBTQ2S+ Representation and Inclusivity in the Classroom

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In this episode of Justice Vs., we take a look into the classroom and speak with organizer Becky McFarlane to describe the fight for LGBTQ2S+ inclusion and why queer visibility is so critical for youth.  Later, we speak with Kyle McGiverin, a teacher who uses his position as an educator to  normalize queer experiences and produce a queer-inclusive school environment. 

For resources mentioned in the podcast, please see below:
The 519

  • The 519 is a Toronto-based non-profit organization committed to the health, happiness and full participation of the LGBTQ2S communities. They have a multitude of in-person and online resources, such as counselling, COVID-19 Resources, Legal Clinics and activities. - https://www.the519.org/

Wyvern, a Novel by Kyle McGiverin 

Youthline 

For ways to get involved and join the fight for LGBTQ2S+ inclusion, please see below: 

Find and Support A Local Organization! 

Create Safe Spaces for Your Students!:

Subscribe and share! Learn more about CCLA here: https://ccla.org/

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Original Music by Ren Bangert.
Audio Editing by Ren Bangert and Paul Berry.

A big thanks to the Justice Vs. Volunteer Team:
Writing and Research Team: Natalie Sequeira, Kate Tutu, Jeremy Zhang, Luke Ryan, Imran Dhanani, Rachael Dyal, Rachael. Bridge, Leo Ghiran, Stella Racca, Sae Furukawa, managed by Brigitte Pawliw-Fry and Eilish Waller
Audio Team: Paul Berry, Ren Bangert, managed by Farid Pesteh
Marketing Team: Arlet Vazquez, Irene Lee, Hope Arpa Chow, managed by Soaad Qahhār Hossain

BM: In a situation where you're fighting for something that's so personal to you, any way  that someone who wants to deny Humanity in the world feels like they won. You know,  that's a hard thing to have to kind of sit with. But it's also a lesson, which is that the fight  never ends even in victory the fight never ends. 

Start: 0:24.216 End: 0:48.283 Length: 0:24.066 

KM: According to human rights legislation, federally and provincially, it's our  responsibility with regardless of the curriculum regardless of the subject area, it's  responsible To be actively and proactively inclusive of the LGBTQ plus conversation we  have to. 

HOST NARRATION: EPISODE BACKGROUND 

Start: 0:48.283 End: 1:40.283 Length: 0:52.000 

MR: The Ontario health and physical education curriculum was overhauled in 2015 to  include discussions of gender identity, consent, same sex relationships and the impact of stereotypes and stigmas. Many saw this as a positive step, a step towards creating a  safer and more inclusive environment for LGBTQ2S students and families. One of those  families was Becky Macfarlane’s, whose voice you first heard. Becky is the director of  programs and Community Services at the 519, a Toronto agency which provides  services to queer communities.  

As a concerned activist and parent of a then 10-year-old student, Becky believed the  curriculum changes would help produce a school environment where queer families like  hers would feel supported, represented, and welcomed. 

BM GUEST CLIP 

Start: 1:40.283 End: 3:00.116 Length: 1:19.833 

BM: I went to public school in the 1980s. It wasn't so much that it was difficult being a  member of the LGBTQ community, it was more that there was no LGBTQ2s community.  And so certainly, sort of my own struggles related to my sexuality and my sexual identity.  Were Sort of happening in complete vacuum. And certainly I don't even think I had the  language to understand what was going on for me. And I think that's probably the  biggest reason why I think that I thought this issue was important, mainly visibility. I  really don't actually think that the kind of building of inclusive spaces for queer and trans  students, or even our understanding of the experiences of queer and trans communities,  happens within a sexual health curriculum. I don't think that's where it should actually  even primarily live, but I do think it's one of the only parts of curriculum and I know that  there are other aspects of curriculum where, you know, experiences of queer and trans  people are touched on but certainly, health education curriculum is one of the most  predominant places it comes up. And so wanting to protect that was hugely important to  me" 

HOST NARRATION: BACKGROUND 

Start: 0:00.000 End: 0:24.216 Length: 0:24.216 

MR: So in 2018, when premier Doug Ford's government repealed the new curriculum to  replace it with material dating back to the late 1990s, Becky and CCLA challenged  Ford's change. They argued that the province was violating equality and security of the  person's rights guaranteed in Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Becky and  CCLA asked the court to keep the 2015 curriculum in place until the government  consulted the public on a new plan. Today we're joined by Becky to describe this fight for  LGBTQ2S inclusion in schools and why queer visibility in schools is critical for youth.  Later, we speak to Kyle McGivern, a teacher who uses his position as an educator to  normalize queer experiences and produce a queer-inclusive school environment.

BECKY MACFARLANE (BM) INTERVIEW START 

HOST NARRATION: GUEST BACKGROUND / INTRODUCTION 

Start: 3:00.116 End: 4:06.000 Length: 1:05.883 

Becky has worked with CCLA in a number of ways, including as a keynote speaker for  the annual Alan Borovoy student conference. This is a conference funded by the Law  Foundation of Ontario, where she talked about her own experiences as a high school  student. 

Welcome, Becky, thank you so much for being here. 

BM: Thanks for having me 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #1: Why was this an important issue for BM? Start: 4:06.000 End: 7:22.000 Length: 3:16.000 

MR: So, when you when CCLA took the province to court, you argued that the province  was in violation of Canada's charter rights and freedoms, which guarantees equality and  security to all people in Canada? So what made the 2015 curriculum so important to  queer and trans students and how that the change also impact on straight and cis  students? 

BM: I think the first thing is for me, and why the kind of charter challenge made some  sense to me because I have to be honest and say that, you know, I'm not necessarily the  kind of person who believes that the courts are the place in which sort of human rights  and social justice is realized. 

For me, it was the fact that the government had made a decision to repeal the  curriculum, they'd made a decision to take it away. And I thought that that act in and of  itself was the thing that actually infringed on the rights of students, not so much the  content of the 2015 curriculum being so critically important because I would argue that it  actually didn't go far enough in terms of exploring some of these issues, but rather the  message that was sent by the government at the time by by repealing it and as I'm sure  you'll remember, it was one of the first things that the government the government did  after it was elected and what it did was send a very chilling kind of message to students  and teachers that should these conversations be happening in schools in the absence of  this kind of process the government was proposing to go through, that there would be  consequences.  

And it was in the context of that sort of chilling effect, that I felt that there was real  danger for for queer and trans students or for children of queer and trans families, because it actually made conversations around queer and trans experiences and  identities, something dangerous. And and it was in the context of that danger that I felt danger. And I felt that it made sense to kind of approach this from the perspective of a  charter challenge. 

I think the second thing I'll say. I mean, I think it's a it's an incredibly important point.  Certainly, it was part of kind of my perspective and position in doing this, which is, you  know, conversations around consent conversations around healthy sexuality. Those are  not things that just benefit queer and trans students. And I think, kind of creating an  environment of openness. Actually, you know, it's positive for everyone. And certainly, I  think, probably more so protects young people who come from families who, for  whatever reason, don't feel comfortable talking about about these issues. And so while  framed I think a lot of the time when we're talking about this particular struggle we talk  about in the context of homophobia and transphobia. And in the context of kind of queer  issues Trans experiences but the reality is, is this is a conversation about equity that  would apply to all students, because it's creating an environment. I think that allows sort  of young people to make their own decisions and to understand their own experiences in  a way that builds the kind of confidence and a sense of sort of self-respect and a sense  of identity that keeps them safe. 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #2: What was it like to take the issue to court? Start: 7:22.000 End: 9:07.866 Length: 1:45.866 

MR: So what was the process like working with CCLA to ask the Superior Court of  Justice to block the repeal of the 2015 Health and Physical education curriculum? 

BM: Um, I mean, I guess the first thing I'd say is that I have a great deal. He'll have  respect for the work that ccla does. I think obviously, having organizations that are at  core interested in the protection of people's civil liberties is incredibly important probably  now more than ever. Again, as someone who perhaps has limited faith in institutions  being the place from which we advance social justice, interested in the process itself,  and really thinking about ways in which you know, existing systems can increase access  to justice um for marginalized communities. And while I may not have faith in particular  systems, I think because people acutely feel the implications of inequity in their daily  lives there's a privilege that comes from saying, I'm not going to use those systems  because I don't believe in them if there is a potential for those systems to actually impact  the kind of daily realities for students um in this context, or for families in this context,  then why wouldn't I take them up particularly because I felt that I was in a in a privileged  position myself as someone who wasn't so afraid of what the fallout might be. I was I'm  an out queer person working in a queer community. And felt quite capable of being able  to kind of navigate whatever the negative pushback was going to be from this particular  challenge.

SOUND EFFECTS/MEDIA/MUSIC 

^^ Sound bite of court proceeding (At one point the courts dismissed the action, arguing  that the curriculum didn't infringe on any charter rights and was not discriminatory.) 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #3: Effect of dismissal decision? 

Start: 9:07.866 End: 11:00.466 Length: 1:52.600 

MR: What was it like to hear that decision? 

BM: I feel like I had set my expectations from the very beginning and wasn't sure kind of  where this was going to land. It felt to me like a stretch not because I thought that the  case itself wasn't really, really strong. But you know, it's not particularly common practice  for courts to side against governments. 

I think, you know, for me at that point, I was really, really interested in kind of seeing  what the government was going to do as a consequence in terms of that decision, and I  think the thing that never really got talked about in relation to the case was that the act  itself, I think, put the government in a position where it had to move forward in a way that  was reflective of what they said in court. And so in some ways, I felt the victory of the  case even before the ruling, because the whole time the government was claiming that  there was nothing insidious about their decision to step back that it wasn't anti-queer,  anti-trans and then went on to talk about all of the amazing things that they do to support  queer and trans students.  

And I saw how angry it made the kind of very right-wing parent groups that were  advocating against sex ed curriculum and coming out really, really against the  government for the position that they were taking. It didn't really matter at that point,  what the court was going to say, the fact that the government was was forced to kind of  side with queer and trans students anyway and then subsequently produced a  curriculum that was essentially the same was a victory. 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #4: Assessment of the revised curriculum? 

Start: 11:00.466 End: 12:00.166 Length: 0:59.700 

MR: You mentioned it’s essentially the same curriculum. For those who don’t know, the  curriculum is actually a guideline of learning objectives mandated by the government,  but it’s up to school boards and teachers to figure out the actual course materials and  topics students get access to.  

In 2019, the Ford government released the new health and physical education  curriculum, which did include teachings about mental health and gender identities, same  sex relationships, similar topics. The Minister of Education, Stephen Lecce (Le-che),

argued that this version strengthened every single area of the previous plan. How would  you assess the 2019 curriculum in comparison to the 2015 one? 

BM: Certainly my kind of like, broad reading of it. And in my conversations with folks who  have really taken a close look, it does feel like for the most part, there isn't any kind of  fundamental difference between the two. As I said, at the very beginning of this, I don't  think that the kind of way in which we teach sexual health is anywhere near where it  needs to be. 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #5: What is missing from revised curriculum? Start: 12:00.166 End: 13:36.366 Length: 1:36.200 

MR: So since you think that the curriculum is not where it needs to be, how would you  amend it? What would you add? 

BM: I don't know if it's so much how I would amend it, or what I would add, I think  everything is about the individual who's teaching the curriculum. There's something that  seems a bit dangerous, almost about leaving something as important as sexual health  completely up to an individual to decide how to teach it. I'm not slighting teachers at all  because I think that the idea that teachers take a curriculum and kind of actualize it is  the way that it should be. As a society and as like sort of, sort of culturally it's very, very  hard for people to talk about sexual health. 

And I think that we need to do a lot of work both with teachers, but also kind of more  broadly as a society to find ways to become much more comfortable about having these  conversations because ultimately, they are tied to health outcomes. They're tied to  mental health outcomes, and they're tied to physical health outcomes, and they're tied to  sexual violence and all sorts of other things. 

We have an epidemic in our society around things like sexual violence, around sexually  transmitted diseases and around a kind of, like, sort of lack of knowledge and confidence  that I feel young people have in relation to being able to have some agency around their  bodies. That worries me a lot. I think the more needs to be in the actualization of  curriculum and and you know, thinking about better ways to teach it and getting more  comfortable having these conversations. 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #6: How can people help engage parents with curriculum? Start: 13:36.366 End: 15:36.700 Length: 2:00.333 

MR: What can teachers and students do to engage with parents who are uncomfortable  with their children learning about gender or sexual identity as part of the curriculum? 

BM: You know, I think a lot about this and I've always taken the position that I like it is  not my place to judge other people around what they think is appropriate or inappropriate for their child to know. I do think, however, that in a public-school system  we need to be very careful about what we kind of situate as being an area where parents  should have more or less control. And it has made me very uncomfortable because we  take issues of sexual health and moralize them. It's a problem because you know, we  don't do the same thing to a lot of other issues. There's lots of things that I disagree with  personally, in relation to kinds of the things my kid is taught in school about history,  about what constitutes literature. But I recognize that I send her to a public school  system and that as a result, I might be able to influence what she knows at home and be  able to offer her alternative understandings, be able to place my own kind of political  analysis or ideological analysis into what she's learning, but I certainly don't have the  right to sort of, you know, bang on the doors of the school demanding that they teach  things exactly the way that I think that they should be taught but we create this kind of  like, you know, exception for something like specific to, you know, queer and trans  identity, as though somehow that is an exception. 

We should be upholding the principles of the charter and upholding the principles of  human rights legislation in our education system. The fact that we even question that by  creating some kind of opt out for people, I think is just a deeper entrenchment of  homophobia and transphobia within an institution. 

BM INTERVIEW QUESTION #7: Advice for audience 

Start: 15:36.700 End: 17:40.000 Length: 2:03.300 

MR: Before we let you go, what advice do you have for listeners to better educate  themselves to be part of the efforts to make schools and other spaces more welcoming  and affirming for all gender and sexual identities? 

BM: You have already worked on edition this bit and it’s great) 

MR: Performative 

BM: Exactly 

MR: Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. 

BM: Thanks for having me

MID-EPISODE TRANSITION: NARRATION | MUSIC 

Start: 17:40.000 End: 18:30.000 Length: 0:50.000 

MR: As a parent and activist, Becky showed us the importance of making sure freedom  of expression is protected in schools and the curriculum.  

In 2014, CCLA published a guide to LGBTQ rights in schools, referencing a Canadian  research survey that stated that queer and non-binary students felt safer and more  accepted when their schools had policies that explicitly addressed homophobia. One of  the tools to create that safe and inclusive environment is a GSA, which is a gay-straight  alliance or gender-sexuality alliance school club; something our next guest knows all  about as he’s co-founded one and has been involved in another. 

You heard Kyle McGivern’s voice at the beginning of the podcast. Kyle is an out  LGBTQ2S educator and author, and currently teaches in Ontario's Peel District School  Board at Thomas Street Middle School.  

INTRO GUEST CLIP 

Start: 18:30.000 End: 19:00.000 Length: 0:30.000 

KM: Normalizing the conversation, I think a lot of teachers make the mistake of believing  that the queer trans conversation has to be serious and heavy and we have to really be  careful. And to an extent there's a, there's logic to that. Absolutely. But it doesn't always  have to be making it as normal and as just part of the routine as possible. That's goes  miles miles, to making the conversation accessible and comfortable and just part of the  experience of the day. 

KYLE MCGIVERIN (KM) INTERVIEW START 

GUEST BACKGROUND / INTRODUCTION 

Start: 19:00.500 End: 19:42.333 Length: 0:41.833 

MR: Each year, Kyle McGivern shares his own coming out story with his students. He  has been invited to speak at numerous schools and universities to describe his  experience as an advocate for change. He also serves on advocacy committees aiming  to promote inclusion and equity for queer youth in schools. He received the F. Janet  Dolman Prize in playwriting in 2012, and in 2016, published his first novel Whyburn  Wyvern, which follows a fantastical tale of a young trans character as part of Kyle's  efforts to introduce younger audiences to characters who resemble them and  demonstrate the diversity of gender identity. Kyle, thank you so much for joining us  today. 

KM: [response to greeting]

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #1: Personal experience coming out in High School. Start: 19:42.666 End: 21:30.395 Length: 1:47.728 

MR: How would you describe your experience as a student? What kind of resources  were available in schools when you were a student? 

KM: Oh, none. In terms of how I would describe my experience as a student, I would  generally sum it up as scary and very, very conflicted. Because I mean, what may be  what may be weird for those who are students now to understand because we have  things like Day of pink, we have several recognized holidays like the International Day  against homophobia, Transgender Day of Remembrance, and so on. These were things  that were not discussed in any substantive sense in school when I was there. And at the  time, the challenging part was that teachers wouldn't talk about it, there'd be no mention  of it. And the only context that I had as a kid for the word gay, in any sense at all, was  the fact that it was thrown around an insult. I had no idea what the word gay meant. I  knew that it was bad before I knew it was a thing. And so at the time it was it was quite  scary because when I eventually figured out that I was gay, it was a matter of like feeling  that I was some kind of, you know, freak that there was something wrong with me,  because the only thing I knew was that it was bad. It was about the worst thing you could  possibly be. It was just one of those things that was taboo, you know, that wasn't talked  about was conceived. And now we occasionally face the the, what's the word I'm looking  for the prevailing idea that something that that talking about people who are gay or trans  or whatever has to be done in a way that's quote, unquote, age appropriate. And at the  time, none of it was considered age appropriate. And I had fantastic teachers who were  wonderful people, but they just weren't equipped 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #2: How experience intersects with KM teaching profession Start: 21:30.395 End: 23:15.742 Length: 1:45.347 

MR: Has being openly gay helped your students approach you with their own  experiences? 

KM: I have students come out either as queer or trans or something to me, at least,  typically once a year, if not once or twice a year. So I'd say yes. Being able to share of  my own experience has been extremely helpful. But I also want to you know, I also want  to point out that the impact is is super significant for kids who aren't LGBTQ because I  think what we have right now are a lot are an increasing amount of role models in the  media who are who are queer who are trans. But the problem is that that's so divorced  from what students everyday experience is and we still need role models for kids who  are out and and happy and confident, that are really part of their everyday experience. I  know for a fact that I'm one of I'm often the only gay person that some of my students  have ever met knowingly. And I think that what's important in what I do because I it's every so often I get accused of, you know, trying to tell kids their beliefs are wrong or 

Justice Versus audio script GSA EPISODE Draft.1.0 Page 9 of 16 

change their families minds or whatever. And I really don't think that's what I do because  my message really in coming out to them and this is I'm very clear when I speak to them  is, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm trying to change the way they interact with  the rest of the world. You don't need to, you don't need to, at your core believe that it's  

okay to be gay in order to treat people with respect and humanity. And speaking as an  educator, it's not my place to challenge Well, certainly my place to challenge but it's not  my place to condemn or, or alter the way that my kids or their families believe.  

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #3: Obligations of schools and school boards Start: 23:15.771 End: 24:17.744 Length: 1:01.972 

MR: What kind of support is the school or a teacher obligated to provide? What  responsibilities do teachers have? 

KM: According to human rights legislation, federally and provincially, it's our  responsibility with regardless of the curriculum regardless of the subject area, it's  responsible To be actively and proactively inclusive of the LGBTQ plus conversation we  have to. I hate to phrase that like an obligation because I really don't. I don't like  teachers. I don't like I don't like the notion that teachers do it because they feel like  they're forced to or they have to do it. But the reality is, we wouldn't always naturally  because it's not our comfort zone. But really, it's no different than any other equity  conversation we talk about. Fighting past the fear as a professional is the first  responsibility, seeking out resources actively, taking a proactive step, figuring out what  I'm not comfortable If and how I can push past that discomfort, and then normalizing it. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #4: Challenges faced by teachers 

Start: 24:17.744 End: 26:20.635 Length: 2:02.891 

MR: So a lot of teachers do want to try and do want to push past the fear but  maybe they're seeing other challenges. What do you think those challenges are  and how can we address them? 

KM: Again, I want to go back to the fear because most of I would argue most of the  challenges that we face in doing this work, whether it's at the administrative level, the  board level, or even the classroom level with the teacher, the biggest one is fear,  absolutely fear. And that could take on various flavors, fear of parent or family backlash.  You know, as a teacher, you never want to get that phone call from parent that says,  What are you telling my kid? Especially if you're not confident in what you're telling the  kids yourself? And if it's something that's new to you, there's fear of saying the wrong  thing. So there is a level of fear around doing it right doing the conversation justice. then,  on top of all that, there's also the fear of professional consequences. When you get  parent complaints, is that going to come along? If you get parent complaints, I should  say, is that going to come along with consequences? on a professional level? Are you going to be hearing from your administrator? Are you going to be hearing from the  board? Is the parent going to complain to the superintendent? And are you going to get  in trouble? And unfortunately, sometimes that does happen. But I've also heard stories  from from colleagues that that are quite shocking that their administrators will tell them not to, for example, disclose their identity to their kids, they'll tell them to tone down the  conversation or to allow kids to leave if they feel uncomfortable talking about it, which we  can't and should not be able to do. fear is The absolutely the biggest obstacle, I think, so  in terms of how we address that, well, we address those challenges by confronting them  openly. We call those fears and barriers out. And we, we do that openly and  unapologetically, we recognize that we have to do it, it's a human rights matter. It's a  human rights conversation, and that professionally, we are safer having the conversation  than avoiding it. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #5: Advice for teachers about making inclusive environment Start: 26:20.635 End: 28:39.771 Length: 2:19.135 

MR: You’ve talked a lot about the aspect of fear among teachers trying to  address queer students and have important conversations. What advice would  you have for teachers trying to make a more inclusive environment? 

KM: I think the natural consequence of creating that inclusive environment is that you're  going to have kids who trust you. And that's really what you want. 

If students do come out to you if this is a one on one conversation, I believe that the  most important thing you can do is validate, I think, especially at younger ages. Kids are  so often told that they don't know they can't possibly know who they are. How They  identify because they're too young. And we know just from our own research in the field  that this isn't this simply isn't true. We need to be very open to you know accepting what  kids bring to us. Kid tells me kid tells me one week that they're going by he/him pronouns  and by the name Zachary. Okay great, good to meet you, Zachary. Let's let's do this  thing. And then the next week comes back and says, You know what, I was wrong. I'm,  I'm he I'm she/her and I go by then accept that too. Recognize that these things are  Ttran can be transitory can be fluid, and that finding out one's identity isn't necessarily  something that happens in one shot. 

In terms of other things that you can generally do as a teacher, I think avoid practices  that rely on segregating kids according to gender. We can avoid those things we can.  We can explore other ways to work with students and engage with students that don't  need those pieces to be a part of it. Beyond that, all boards have the resources. But on  

top and on top of everything else, is find out what your students know, figure out what  place they're in, learn what their, what they're comfortable with already how much they  know, chances are, they'll know more than you And it's quite possible you have students  in your class that could teach you a few things. So approach that with humility. Be open  to that possibility. Learn with the kids, and especially if you're one of those people who's afraid to address it because you're afraid of doing it wrong. Don't be afraid to say that. Because showing that positivity and that attitude, that's what's going to make the  difference. For a queer kid, not that you're an expert, but that you're open and that you  that your priority is to make this a conversation that is accessible, comfortable and  inclusive. 

HOST NARRATION - CONTEXT 

Start: 28:39.771 End: 29:20.000 Length: 0:40.228 

MR: When it comes to creating a queer-inclusive environment, the rights to freedom of  expression and equality are very important, as well as the right to freedom of  association. This Charter right protects your ability to join and organize groups - groups  such as GSAs. CCLA believes that being able to create a club like a gay-straight alliance  and hosting queer-inclusive events is a Charter protected right.  

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #6: Role of GSAs in schools 

Start: 29:20.000 End: 31:33.507 Length: 2:13.507 

MR: So building that inclusive space in your classroom and in the broader school  community can be very, very important. A way that you've been involved in  building that environment is actually through a gay straight Alliance. Can you tell  us a little bit more about how Gay Straight alliances fit into supporting students of  various gender and sexual identities? 

KM: I've heard of many GSA groups that will actually avoid the term Gay Straight  Alliance because quite quite fairly, it leaves out the gender part of the conversation you  know, trans kids can be gay or straight. But excluding that that part the gender part from  it. You know, isn't something people are comfortable with and I've seen a very wide  variety of examples to counter this my own about my own school the the, the GSA group  is called SAFE which stands for students allied for equity they came up with that years  ago and I think it's fantastic. I've heard gender spectrum Alliance I've heard, I've heard  some really cool ones. I think the most important function is to provide a safe and  pressure free space.  

I think there's a there's a prevailing idea that if you're going to have any kind of  extracurricular at school, it has to do something. You can't just have kids coming in and  hanging out at recess. I don't subscribe to that. I think. I think if you want to have a GSA  that whose only purpose is to provide a space for kids to come and feel safe and do their  own thing. Okay, go for it. In fact, that's one of my favorite parts of working with a GSA is  just being able to go and hang out with kids in a forum and environment when they're  where they're comfortable, and they don't have to worry about being judged for who they  are. And this isn't just for kids who are out closeted kids, Allied kids, kids who just, you  know, seem to seem to have trouble just being an ally, even, or who are just tired of 

Justice Versus audio script GSA EPISODE Draft.1.0 Page 12 of 16 

having to justify and just want to be somewhere where they feel they don't have to make  excuses for it, especially those who come from families who may not agree with or who  may have challenging views on the queer or trans conversation. Sometimes school is  the only place that can these kids can actually find some common ground with people. 

Beyond that, I think another really important facet of GSA groups. There's no one right  way, there's no one right way to do it. And I think the more creative staff is willing to be  and the more they're willing to encourage their students to think about Okay, what Do  you want from this, that gives them so much agency so much power, so much flexibility?  It gives them the opportunity to really go beyond their own experience. And I think that's  the most important facet. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #7: Influences and stresses on student’ identity development Start: 31:34.000 End: 33:02.940 Length: 1:28.939 

MR: Yeah, getting that space to just be yourself is so important. Instead of being told  that you have to be an activist if you care about this, because activism can be quite  exhausting and trying to figure out who you are growing up while also trying to do that  can be a lot for a little, little student 

KM: It can, it's there at times as an adult, I get really, really exhausted with it even just  discussing online. You can imagine what that's like for kids surrounded by the internet.I  think the really scary thing about things being so focused online right now is that some of  those kids school is their escape for students who are in really challenging families  situations, to be unable to escape that even for a day, at a time, that's huge. So  addressing it means that teachers have to be really courageous and willing to push. We  have to make ourselves resources, accessible resources, especially because doing  doing lessons and and such online through video means parents have greater  involvement. Parents can overhear what's going on, which is not something we normally  experience in the classroom. So doing this as a teacher involves a lot of courage and a  lot of experience, and sometimes we don't have that. So, again, it means reaching out It  means being proactive, it means making it a priority, even if it's done through through  examples of media or however, just making yourself a safe accessible space is the most  important thing. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #8: Has there been much progress? 

Start: 33:02.934 End: 34:11.061 Length: 1:08.127 

MR: And where have you seen the most progress when it comes to inclusion and  equity for queer, trans non binary non binary youth in schools? 

KM: Well, legislation and policy have been huge in bits and pieces. I think certainly at the  board level, I can speak I can speak highly of the appeal board. As an example, where  not too long ago, a few years ago, they released a set of guidelines around gender 

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identity and expression that were fantastic, that address very specific things like At what  point you should be considering involving the parents and what steps can be taken  without without involving the parents to validate a student's gender identity. it was quite  comprehensive. And I just again, speaking from the perspective of an ally, I thought it  was I thought it was a really strong step forward. And we've been seeing more steps  forward like that, as the conversation grows, the overall attitude, the media, the kids, kids  are better than adults, that the stuff by and large, is what I've found in my time in the  classroom. And they, you know, they them having the courage and bringing this forward  and learning more is pushing the teachers to do the same thing. And that's the greatest  progress I've seen so far. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #9: How does intersectionality fit into the mix? Start: 34:11.067 End: 36:01.160 Length: 1:50.092 

MR: So when it comes to the progress we’ve seen regarding queer equality and  rights in schools, have we seen the same kind of steps when it comes to race,  class, different mental or physical abilities, and how those overlap and require  different kinds of equity considerations. 

KM: You know it's really interesting because that intersectionality piece is something  every single equity conversation struggles with. And it's, there's no there's no particularly  easy answer because that can, the different realities can intersect in so many different  ways. being gay and being Catholic. For example, a kid might feel equally strong about  both as core parts of their identity, but they may feel that those two pieces are directly in  conflict. And that's, you know, that's a fairly lukewarm example because we're not even  digging into the politics and the realities of, of race of any of any of those. And, and that's  also challenging because, you know, there's a fine line to toe especially speaking from  my own position of privilege as a white guy, between calling out the more problematic  aspects that exist in, in occasionally in within within cultures or within, within, within  families. Between that and acknowledging that those are not necessarily truisms, those  are not those are, in many ways generalizations. So we don't want to approach things  from a lens that assumes that because of a Culture a faith or a race or anything like that,  that, that conversations around homophobia or transphobia are going to be any more  difficult. Because I don't think that's necessarily true. But at the end of the day, teachers  need to not shy away from bringing those intersections up. 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #10: How teachers, parents and allies can help. Start: 36:01.156 End: 36:55.624 Length: 0:54.468 

MR: Alongside this intersectional lens, a lot of students may have reasons why  they don't feel accepted in their own homes. What roles do schools and teachers  play when queer, trans or non binary students may not be accepted at home?

KM: Well, I think that there's three main things that a kid needs from a teacher in that  scenario. They need validation, they need trust, and they need agency. And especially  when kids don't feel those three things at home, we need we need to give them that at  school. There are so many ways in which students can trust or can take charge of that  journey at school, if we let them. And as teachers it's important we recognize that as  much as we strive for families and and kids in such to have a strong partnership with us,  we have to recognize that a teacher is there for the kid, not the parent, 

KM INTERVIEW QUESTION #11: Advice for young people exploring LGBTQ2S identity Start: 36:55.624 End: 39:32.315 Length: 2:36.690 

MR: So ccla we actually run an education program funded by the law foundation of  Ontario. And we go into schools to talk to kids about critical thinking their rights and  freedoms, how to be an activist, how does how to say something when something is  unjust. So for listeners, especially our younger ones in school, who may be experiencing  bullying, discrimination, harassment or anything like that, what would you say to them  directly?* 

KM: Understand and remind yourself that you're valid. That your experience is valid. The  only person who can decide who you are is you. And that doesn't change because  you're young. Because I remember feeling I remember being young and being worried.  Not that I wouldn't. Not that not I wasn't even most worried that I would be targeted or  harassed. I was most worried that I wouldn't be believed. 

I would say keep your friends close. And then on beyond that if you're if there's a teacher  or adult in your life who you trust Don't be afraid to reach out, having someone to talk to  who's been, who may have been through it or may be able to connect you more to  people who have shared those kinds of experiences that can make all the difference  even just having someone to listen. But you are the one who controls your journey. If  you decide to come out you do it when you feel safe and ready, and not before. Don't be  ashamed of who you are. Don't be ashamed of how you feel. Sometimes the  circumstances of our lives forced us to hide or even lie, but that doesn't mean there's  anything wrong with you. And that doesn't mean you're doing something Something  wrong by keeping those parts to yourself until you feel ready to share them. And you can  find anonymous resources and supports out there as well reach out to the 519 Kids Help  Phone a YSP. that's associated Youth Services appeal. They all have services for youth,  and supports for youth that can be accessed by anybody. And as much as it can suck to  hear it gets better, because we always want to try to make it better. We want to create  that better as is right now, it is worth keeping in mind that if you're going through the  challenge right now, if you're feeling stuck, if you're feeling frustrated, or scared or  lonely, this too shall pass. It really, really will. And there will be a time that you reach in  your life. At some point, maybe now maybe next year. There will be a time where you  will look back on those experiences as an as truly as a memory of how things were And 

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you'll have come to a better place within yourself. And with those around you keep that  eye on the horizon.You'll get there 

MR: Thank you so much for being here 

KM: Now, it's my pleasure. I had a great time and I'm really flattered, as I said, to to be  able to join you here. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much. 

*NOTE: This question was not re-recorded. The audio contains the original question. The text  should be revised for the final transcript. 

EPISODE WRAP UP AND EXTRO 

MUSIC 

SERIES / PODCAST MEDIA 

CCLA MEDIA/BRANDING